AMY GOODMAN: In Wisconsin, Clinton received 7 percent fewer votes in counties that relied on electronic voting machines compared with counties that used optical scanners and paper ballots. That was a piece in New York magazine. Your thoughts?
BRUCE SCHNEIER: So that’s exactly correct. So that is the red flag that could indicate hacking. It could indicate other things, too. There was a complex post on FiveThirtyEight.com that looked at that data and had a theory that it was demographics that was the deciding factor, and not hacking. That could be true, too. So, we have a problem right here. Right? Elections serve two purposes. The first is to choose the winner, but the second is to convince the loser. The losing side has to believe the election is fair; otherwise, it’s not legitimate. Things like this delegitimatize the election. And that’s why we need to investigate them and come up with the actual answer. And if there was hacking, we need to know about it. If there wasn’t, we need to know about it. And—